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  • Jerrid P. Kalakay

Episode 46 - The Power of Social Intrapreneurship with Authors Narayan Sundararajan and Jacen Greene

Updated: Oct 17, 2019



On today's episode, we are joined by authors Narayan Sundararajan and Jacen Green to discuss their newly published book "The Rule of One: The Power of Intrapreneurship." We discuss the journey of Grameen-Intel Social Business, a partnership between Grameen and Intel Corporation, from the beginning to now 9-years later. We also discuss the desire of the authors to share the successes and failures of their social business to inspire other corporations and individuals to pursue untraditional partnerships to improve the world. #ruleofone #socialintrapreneurship #grameenintel

Links

https://www.amazon.com/Rule-One-Power-Social-Intrapreneurship/dp/0670092371


Bio(s)

Kazi Huque and Narayan Sundararajan are among a new group of social intrapreneurs who think, and act, like entrepreneurs within larger organizations, designing products and launching startups. Joined by social innovation expert Jacen Greene, in this book, they detail the creation, launch, and growth of Grameen Intel, a joint venture between Intel Corporation and Grameen Trust. This social business linked the impact of Grameen Trust, started by Nobel Peace Prize Winner Muhammad Yunus, and the expertise of Intel to alleviate poverty through the innovative use of information technology.

This book uses Grameen Intel as a case study to explain the best practices, emerging trends, and essential tools social intrapreneurs and entrepreneurs need to know to be successful. Whether you’re running an enterprising nonprofit, starting a social enterprise, leading an intrapreneurial venture, or teaching aspiring changemakers, this book is for you.

Jacen Greene

Jacen Greene is the assistant director of PSU's Homelessness Research and Action Collaborative, a multidisciplinary center of excellence dedicated to addressing issues related to homelessness. He previously managed social innovation programs in PSU's School of Business and is an instructor, author, and speaker on social entrepreneurship. Jacen's books include The Rule of One: The Power of Social Intrapreneurship and Elevating Impact: Case Studies in Sustainable Business and Social Entrepreneurship. His case studies have won the Oikos Competition and been used by more than 3500 students and faculty around the world. He has presented or led workshops for Mercy Corps, the Fulbright Program, AmeriCorps, Net Impact Conference (2011), GoGreen PDX (2012), VentureWell OPEN (2016, 2019), Ashoka U Exchange (2014, 2016–2019), and Social Enterprise World Forum (2018), among many others. Jacen graduated Beta Gamma Sigma with an MBA in sustainability from Portland State University and magna cum laude with a B.A. in China Studies from Willamette University. He has worked or taught in Uganda, India, China, Cambodia, Honduras, and Nicaragua.

Narayan Sundararajan

Experienced intrapreneur and technical program leader with proven expertise in seeding and driving projects from concept to launch, collaborating across internal and external stakeholders. Strong multidisciplinary technical background towards product development infused with team building and leadership experience that helped influence corporate product road maps by understanding user needs, strategic business goals, and opportunities. Deep understanding of emerging markets and product life cycles with successful launches of diverse hardware and software products and solutions into the market.

Transcript Jerrid Kalakay 0:09 Welcome to the Teaching Change podcast, where we explore issues of social entrepreneurship, education, and innovation. I'm your host Jerrid Kalakay. Welcome, Jason green. And Nora, very excited to have you both on Teaching Change. I'm excited to kind of talk about what Social Entrepreneurship is and what it means to the world and, and also have you share about your new adventure and publishing a book. So I'll allow you to introduce yourself. And then we'll go from there.

Jacen Greene 0:42 Thank you. So I'm Jason green. I'm currently the assistant director for PSU homelessness research and action collaborative. So I've moved from teaching Social Innovation, running Social Innovation programs, and studying Social Innovation to being directly involved.

Jacen Greene 1:00 Hopefully, enacting innovative approaches to addressing homelessness, housing, and security. In my previous role, I worked closely with the cofounders of Grameen Intel, which is a really remarkable social business that was formed through a partnership between Grameen trust and Intel Corporation. So the book is the rule of one the power of social entrepreneurship. And we have co-founder Nara Sundararajan, here with us.

Narayan Sundararajan 1:28 Hi, this is Narayan Sundararajan

Narayan Sundararajan 1:31 I go by Nara.

Narayan Sundararajan 1:33 I'm the founding CTO for Grameen adult, the entrepreneurial venture that Jason just mentioned. And I'm also a director and a senior principal engineer who's really passionate about applying cutting edge technologies towards social impact on a global scale.

Jerrid Kalakay 1:53 That's fantastic. Well, welcome to both of you. And also you have a third to your triade

Jerrid Kalakay 2:00 As well do either one of you feel comfortable and kind of in. I know he's not able to join us today but kind of introducing him and giving us his background.

Narayan Sundararajan 2:09 Absolutely, yeah. So the third author of the book and also my colleague and co-founder, Kazi Huque, he's with Intel Corporation. He's in Intel capital, on the finance on the legal side. And he's the co-founder of Grameen Intel, and he's a CTO of the main Adult Social posts. And I should clarify that I don't have a role in Grameen Intel and its startup for growth. I was just excited about the opportunity to chronicle sort of their journey and share it as a case study with my students initially and then that case study grew into a book to share with students and colleagues. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. And we are so happy that Jason chose to do it and did a fantastic job of it as well.

Jerrid Kalakay 3:00 Thank you.

Jerrid Kalakay 3:01 So as an educator myself, I am frequently working with entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, especially in the social sector.

Jerrid Kalakay 3:12 And frequently writing cases and working with cases. So what I'm interested kind of knowledge is when you all started working together was the idea always to write a book or did that kind of come as a byproduct of a good relationship?

Jacen Greene 3:28 I think it was very much a byproduct. We had worked together on writing a case study on Grameen Intel that I use in my classroom that we made available online

Jacen Greene 3:39 and placed in the finalists in an international competition and got a lot of traction. And I think Kazi and Nora have been thinking about what it might look like to write a book and they mentioned it to me, and I sort of independently been thinking that this will make a really interesting book to expand on.

Jacen Greene 4:00 That original case study and bringing a lot more of their story and their journey and, and some more theory and best practices around Social Entrepreneurship.

Jerrid Kalakay 4:09 Gotcha. Gotcha. And so so Nora, why don't you tell us a little bit about Grameen Intel. Now, our listeners are familiar with Grameen Bank and family of corporations. But tell us a little bit about Grameen Intel. And what it is you guys do and how long you've been around and, and so forth.

Narayan Sundararajan 4:29 Yeah, absolutely. So Grameen Intel was formed about

Narayan Sundararajan 4:35 about

Narayan Sundararajan 5:31 I met Muhammad Yunus and we really wanted to see if we can go do

Narayan Sundararajan 5:38 do something together. And that was the action item that we got from Craig to go figure out what that something would be. And that's how Grameen Intel got started. And it was modeled after the social business concept that clubs Uranus has been, has been talking about that time. Which is a non-laws, nondividend company? And Fast Forward nine years, they are developing technology solutions to really kind of address some of the biggest social needs in the areas of agriculture and healthcare. And the idea was Intel brings in its technological progress and technical expertise. And combined with the neural outreach and the knowledge of the base of the pyramid from Grameen, the power of the to really combine and create solutions that have a massive global impact.

Jerrid Kalakay 6:41 Absolutely, yeah. And so it's obviously an international endeavor between two gigantic organizations. How was that process in you know, nine years ago, kind of bringing those two together to make something that would be you know, really impactful For the world?

Narayan Sundararajan 7:03 Yeah, that's a great question. Jerrid. And in fact, in one of the chapters, we actually kind of go to the, how do we kind of bring a completely profit-driven company like Intel and, and, and a nonprofit social impact group and remains and it could be told it wasn't easy, right? There are the incentive structures were different. The working styles were different. The timelines were different patients was an interesting aspect. So all of it were kind of, I would say challenging in the initial formation. So in fact, we literally essentially took a year and a half to to to reach kind of understand the language understand the legalities around forming a social business. And add to that we really wanted this entity to be based out of the place where we wanted to have impact and not be kind of doing it out of the US or sitting in our, in our ivory tower, kind of creating solutions we really wanted to be in the GO is our close to the Jews, you want to get our solutions to. So that added another sort of complexity to it in terms of understanding the norms and regulations. So it was an interesting journey. And one of the things that we did was really kind of jot down those experiences, so that when another person or other entity tries to do this, hopefully, they have not necessarily the country. Please playbook on how to do this, or at least the mistakes that he did. Right so that they can Yeah, they can use that in their own journey.

Jerrid Kalakay 9:11 Absolutely. Absolutely. And so what is your background kind of equipped you to get involved in this, but what has kept you going for almost 10 years? That's a great question

Narayan Sundararajan 9:24 again, right. So

Narayan Sundararajan 9:26 So in terms of the background, that kind of got me into this, I hadn't done I've done different roles, spanning different business units. One of the roles that I was previously doing before founding Grameen Intel was I managed, I was a global program manager for technology in emerging markets for healthcare. And as part of that board I had, what what what I had done with really work with the UN organization various governments and NGOs and really kind of understanding the unmet needs largely from a healthcare standpoint, really things around healthcare delivery axes and pain points, right. So, and developed technology solutions to the kind of see how we can improve the efficacy and the efficiency of healthcare systems around the world. So that definitely kind of was already in the VT in terms of my expertise. But the other thing that that kind of really pushed me towards this, this experience was actually a personal story at a time while doing this healthcare and emerging market, I used to travel quite a bit across Africa and Asia and Latin America and While doing that you used to visit all kinds of healthcare clinics and facilities and, and while doing that, and also, while doing a documentary on AIDS along with my wife, I contracted tuberculosis. Wow. And, and it was kind of bad thing from a couple of viewpoints. That's when my wife was pregnant and we were expecting our first baby. And here I was coughing, coughing quite a bit and then diagnosed with tuberculosis. And right when my son was born the day my son was born, I was actually related to surgery. surgery room. All right. Wow. To have a surgery. Right. And what about that was that was bad. The thing that nailed to an I had to be on on on tuberculosis drugs for the next six months. And what these drugs do is make you extremely hungry. Right, while you're taking it and, and I was just imagining the plight of the daily agent while I was doing this. And it turns out that this was hindsight it turns out that many of the tuberculosis incidences are in daily wage earners. And they do they have to take these medications that make them possibly. And also what happens is, you once you take these drugs, you become better pretty quickly, but you're supposed to go through that regimen for at least six months. And what the rickshaw wasn't really beta runners do is these topics after they say a month or so because it just that it makes them really hungry and they don't have the money to go have that kind of nutrition that I was able to offer. And that was a touching moment for me were the things that we kind of take for granted that are not the norm. And that really strengthened my resolve to kind of go do things that actually make a difference in the base of the foot. And healthcare has been barely started and remains in tow, for that reason. And also, the other part of it was how do we use technology, in particular, cutting edge technologies to really pointed at the problem that can have massive social unrest? I know that's a long-winded answer, but I really wanted to kind of, there's always a personal angle to many of these stories and be felt it was very important to kind of bring that forward in that book as well.

Jerrid Kalakay 13:52 That is a great motivator. I'm sure that's sustained you what kind of successes have you had in with Grameen Intel.

Narayan Sundararajan 14:04 Yeah. So as I had mentioned before, I think our focus has been around a couple of key verticals, which is around agriculture and healthcare. And you have solutions in each of those areas. Right. And just to give you a concrete example, in the case of agriculture we specifically focused on smallholder farmers. And the reason being over 70% of the world's population still is directly or indirectly tied to agrarian economies. And the have poverty alleviation as one of the key goals which we do. Taking care of pain points of smallholder farmers is a natural sort of goal. Right. And for the smallholder farmers, the solutions that be developed by really targeted towards his or her four key pain points during a crops like and very simply put it essentially what to learn how to grow it well by providing the right sort of nutrition to the crop, and how do we prevent pests from attacking that crop? And how do I get the best place for my produce but I harvest it's, it's really down to those four key tenets, that smallholder farmer kind of leads his life. So what we did was really kind of developed point applications that can run on any low cost phone, smartphone or a tablet or a PC that provides clear recommendations that are actionable by the farmer, so that ultimately they can increase your you decrease The cost of decreases their expenses, which is essentially cost of fertilizers and, and inputs. And really how do we increase our income. And we have had some really good success stories bullet at the very local level, we started a project called Project harvest in Bangladesh, where we essentially created Social Entrepreneurship would buy our solution, which is essentially a phone or a tablet running our app and a sarcastic kid. And they would essentially go provide recommendation services to farmers who are done then able to increase your income by increasing and decreasing their expenses. And also we have had good success working at the other end with governments. So we did a nationwide deployment in Cambodia, working with the government there, the Ministry of Agriculture ID and other No other NGOs and implementation agencies where we really took our solution and enable the Ministry of Agriculture extension officers to go provide these recommendations. So we have done work on both spectrum, both ends of the spectrum, wanted to, hey, let's create jobs, creating social entrepreneurs, providing recommendations to working with the government, really tagging RR tacking our solution to the existing extension, agricultural extension system. So that's one example of a solution that I'm really proud of. It is by no means as good as we would like to be, but I think we are the path to scaling it.

Jerrid Kalakay 17:52 Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and when we talk about scaling, I'd like to bring Jason into the conversation now because When we're talking about scaling, not only your own endeavor but also sharing the story brought more broadly. I imagine the book comes into focus, right? Because you're trying to create a ripple effect if you will. And so, so Jason, you I understand you wrote that you wrote a case study on Grameen Intel. And it got some traction there. And then what who was it and how was the covered with the conversation sound like when you said, Okay, we've got this case study, let's, let's create a let's write a book. Let's try to book the show. Let's share the story. So others will follow.

Jacen Greene 18:39 Yeah, I think it was, I think Kazi actually reached out to me and said that they had been thinking about writing a book, and I've been thinking the same thing. And it seemed like a natural fit that they had, you know, more that they wanted to share. And I wanted to expand it into a book because I've been teaching from Social Entrepreneurship and Social Entrepreneurship for years and had had A lot of trouble finding an approachable Social Entrepreneurship book that took sort of real-world, real-world stories and then added in some of the theory, and best practices of Social Entrepreneurship. And yet, I was seeing a lot of demand from our students and from practitioners in that kind of a resource. We were having more and more students coming through saying, I don't necessarily want to be an entrepreneur because the topics I care about have incredible social enterprises already working on them. I want to support these organizations, or I want to work in a government or I want to work in a big corporation to do this type of work. What is out there for me?

Jerrid Kalakay 19:46 Yeah, absolutely. So you had kind of struggled in your own teaching, to kind of struggle to find a good resource for Social Entrepreneurship. And I would agree I mean, I'm really excited about this book for very selfish reasons because it'll help me teach social entrepreneurship to all of my students. Because like you, I run into a lot of students who go, you know what social entrepreneurship is really exciting. But I don't see myself being the guy or the girl to start a company, I want to go and work for another company and do this kind of work within that company. And it's really hard to find examples. And so, so you realize that, and then how was the writing process? What would that look like? I mean, you've got three authors, two co-founders, and a practitioner turned academic, all together on this writing project. What was that? Like? I thought

Jacen Greene 20:39 it was very collaborative. So Kazi, and Nara, you know, would send outlines or write entire parts of the book around sort of product development and challenges. They faced their personal journeys as entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And then I was, you know, writing bits that are saying, Okay, well This is really interesting. What they've faced here is a good example of this theory. And the tool they apply here relates to this specific tool kit or this best practice, or, you know, is able to bring in a lot of this theory and a lot of the tools that are out there some in design thinking and Human-Centered Design, some in Social Entrepreneurship, some of the entrepreneurship tools that are around and kind of create this, this narrative of Grameen Intel, and say, here's what happened. And then here's how it relates to this theory. And then here's what they did here. And here's a tool that they used, or here's another tool that has since become available that could have helped. And so I think we were able to put it together in a way that it's almost it's not a textbook, but it's almost like a narrative textbook where you have a narrative, you have a great story, and you're able to thread in the theory and the tools, the best practices in a way that I think is really engaging. I hope it's really engaging.

Jerrid Kalakay 21:55 Yeah, it seems like you kind of tiptoed the lot or told the line between textbook and getting really scholarly and kind of a field manual more so to really influence the practice in the field of social entrepreneurship. Would that be? Would that be fair? A fair understanding?

Jacen Greene 22:17 Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it. We were trying to fill that gap that it was out there, where a lot of practitioners aren't necessarily going to sit down and read a textbook. But a lot of the sort of field kits and guides that are out there might have a few little sort of kind of case studies like, you know, one paragraph breakouts here and there. But there isn't sort of a strong narrative thread that pulls it all together and makes it a little more approachable. And they sell them to bring in some of the theory that's been developed by academics that can really help provide sort of a grounding and a framework for understanding all the different pieces.

Jerrid Kalakay 22:54 Yeah, absolutely. The theory and practice, right, you really yeah, eating the two and a best-case scenario How long was the writing process for you all? Was this a labor of love over several years? Or did it come together pretty quickly? It was a long process.

Jacen Greene 23:12 It was several years and we went through several publishers.

Jacen Greene 23:17 Okay, it's such a new field that sometimes when we were working even with academic publishers who had published titles in Social Entrepreneurship and say, what do you what is this? What Social Entrepreneurship? What are you talking about? So we found ourselves and our I think you probably had more of this. I felt like we were a little too cutting edge at the start. When we began the book A few years ago, I think now more publishers are like, Oh, yeah, I am hearing a lot of demand for that type of work. And I see more articles and more toolkits and resources around entrepreneurship in the last, you know, year or two, but it was very challenging at first to get publishers interested and then Even some that were interested it just ended up not working out.

Jerrid Kalakay 24:04 Yeah, yeah. So So Nora, what do you think about? I mean, well, how was that process for you? Because, you know, clearly in your role with Grameen Intel, you know, I'd imagine one of your job requirements was not to write a book. So, you know, how, how was that process for you? And especially when you're, you know, where the marketplace sort of speech doesn't really understand or appreciate what you're trying to do?

Narayan Sundararajan 24:31 Yeah, I think I mean,

Narayan Sundararajan 24:34 a couple of things. Right. I think one of the things we felt pretty strongly was, especially after we met Jason was, was the fact that this story needed to be told. Not necessarily for, for, for, for it to be our story, but really, that there are folks who really could benefit from this narrative, right? It was this is a really interesting mix of experiential and theoretical learning. Right. So, I think that's what kept us going in terms of publisher had Jason mentioned and but the really good news was then penguin be reached out to Penguin Random House and the be sent send the editor a draft or potential editor at that time grab she just jumped on it they say hey, this is fantastic I like the way that this is a personal journey interlaced with actual theory supporting it so that it is not too fluffy. Right. Pardon the word there but, but it is actually grounded on, on, on, on, on either theories that we were unconsciously following or actually conscious And that's what Jason did really, really well, which is kind of combining that knowledge of the theoretical knowledge along with another to have an experiential journey, that that serves the purpose of if somebody wants to go down this path. Here's one-day folks who didn't hear the mistakes that they learned from, and here's how they could potentially go do this. So the process itself was extremely interesting for me. I learned a lot, right, I'm, in fact, that truth be told, I learned a lot about the theories from leading my own book.

Jerrid Kalakay 26:37 Yeah.

Narayan Sundararajan 26:39 Right. So that was very interesting. And, and also, the other part was, we didn't want to keep it. We want we didn't want to make it too dry. So there's always a sort of a personal undercurrent, including names of people who will be actually interacted with so so we took Put it very succinctly, we wanted to keep it honest.

Jerrid Kalakay 27:03 Yes, absolutely. Well, and it's and it's true then it becomes an authentically True story. And you know, and what I love about your book is that you, as you said, you share the mistakes, you show the warts sort of speak of the work itself. You know, because one of the things that sometimes difficult especially in Social Entrepreneurship, Social Entrepreneurship, writing is that we have this tendency as human beings to look through rose-colored glasses on all of the things we've done in the past. Oh, of course, we are a great success because look how great we did all these things, and we don't. And somewhat we're kind of almost afraid because there's a vulnerability right and admitting you messed up on some things. How did you balance that? Was it because it was the three of you writing that you're able to be more vulnerable? Or did you guys really have to pull it out of one another?

Narayan Sundararajan 28:07 Actually, I don't think it was too hard. I mean, initially, I mean, the crux of it is when when men and Kazi and I thought about the structure of the book and the topics we wanted to cover, under the first idea that we had, and when we also chatted with Jason, who is really that each chapter heading would be a lesson that we learned. Right? So it was actually we didn't have to pull it out of each other. It was fairly natural, in terms of that's the way we even thought about the books. Right. And, and, and again, the book itself is not a here is a success story. Go read it. Absolutely not. Right. It is actually that here is our journey. are the things that we have learned it is still an experiment in. NB wanted that humility and not just for pretending to be humble, but is really the

Jacen Greene 29:12 case. That was really exciting for me as you know, as a teacher and as an educator was that Kazi, Nara was saying us, we want to really highlight where we got things wrong and what we learned because that's so essential for a successful social entrepreneur or entrepreneur. And they wanted to be this guide that was very honest, and the hope they could avoid, you know, help feature Social Entrepreneurship, avoid the same mistakes and learn from that. I thought that was a really valuable approach. Jerrid Kalakay 29:41 Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that I know my students anecdotally gain a lot more from learning what I did wrong in my, in my own businesses and my own path than what I should you know what they should do. I think it just becomes a lot more real, you know, and one of the biggest Things about, you know, starting this podcast is, and most of the work that I do and kind of the field is, is preventing people from having to make the same mistakes that others have made. So I really appreciate you all taking this approach and so forth. Now the book itself is out, right?

Narayan Sundararajan 30:20 Yes, it is. I keep above Yeah.

Narayan Sundararajan 30:23 One more thing to the last question. I'm sure you can get bug bubbled up. Care to balance two-point balance lessons learned with MIT success story because we also didn't want to give the impression that man this is so hard to get into the US. Right so those examples of some beautiful projects that I'm I'm super proud of and bank of Where we finally got nailed it right in the sense of Yeah, it took a couple of tries. But we really love the way BB finally ended up with that product right so and so we wanted to be carefully balanced the lessons learned with some success chart on man. But what I'm getting into

Jerrid Kalakay 31:23 it's not all doom and gloom right where you just scan people off of the field. Yeah, absolutely. I totally understand that little spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down I think that's what the Mary Poppins. Absolutely. So one of the last things I want to ask the two you two gentlemen are you know if everything goes exactly the way your wildest dreams, what would the result of the book be on the field and on the on academia, etc or the result BI

Jacen Greene 31:59 Started I, I think in terms of academia, I would love to see Social Entrepreneurship embedded more and more in Social Innovation and Social Entrepreneurship programs. I'd love to see these programs move a bit away from the myth of the hero printers, the person who comes in with the amazing idea and solves everyone's problems. And, you know, that's just really not how these things tend to happen in the real world, at least not that successful businesses and social businesses. And so I hope that books like this can help push people away from that a bit. And then in terms of business, I really hope it will help other corporate managers and executives see that they have amazing possibilities to act as entrepreneurs, to live to their values and to launch businesses and programs that can really make a difference.

Narayan Sundararajan 32:57 If I if I may, if I may add

Narayan Sundararajan 33:02 Maybe I'll take the three categories that I want to see. I'll just read the first one is around. folks were wanting to do something similar. I really hope this book kind of encourages 1000 flowers. So that's, that's the that's, that's really the goal of this book, to encourage, inspire. Could your knowledge, whatever word you want to use, so that more people out there, see this as a possibility, and not just as a possibility, but also emissions. Right? That's that's one. Number two is from the corporate side, not just corporate America, but the corporate world, I would, I would be 22 If even 1% of their CSR budget, corporate social responsibility budget actually goes towards putting a stake in the ground and actually creating opportunities like this, whether it's a social business or social entrepreneurship opportunity for folks within corporate members in the corporate world, go solve big problems. dog would be just phenomenal if you can start a movement where it is not just a hundred k flyby volunteerism, but really putting a stake in the ground taking some of that budget. So I think those are, you know, the two categories and the third one is really in the academic world as, as Jason mentioned, I think they should be part and parcel of, of, of, not just entrepreneurship or entrepreneurship is taught by three businesses. Dark economic star and, and I hope this kind of help serve a tiny bit of that hope in academia as well.

Jerrid Kalakay 35:13 Yeah, absolutely I think this the concept and the approach and the work of this, I think is going to go a long way I really appreciate both you gentlemen sharing your stories with me and sharing it with our audience and kind of closing Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience before we conclude

Narayan Sundararajan 35:35 I think please go read the book. I hope it inspires you to inspire and really, really take it upon you to go solve some of the biggest problems in the world. You are the change.

Jacen Greene 35:51 Yeah, I think people need to realize that regardless of their role, they don't have to be an entrepreneur. They don't have to be you Working in international development, everybody has a role to play. And they can build on the skills and experience that they have to find a unique role to really make a difference.

Jerrid Kalakay 36:10 Till next time, be nice and change some stuff







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