• Jerrid P. Kalakay

Episode 43 - Ashoka U on Teaching Change Series with Rachel Maxwell

Updated: Oct 8, 2019

On today’s episode, we have our 7th and final episode in our special series Ashoka U on Teaching Change with our conversation with Rachel Maxwell, Head of Learning and Teaching Development at the University of Northampton. Rachel shares her work in developing changemaker learning outcomes to be adopted institution-wide, her own philosophy around change-making, and the impact the upcoming Ashoka U publication will have on the field of changemaker education.


Dr. Rachel Maxwell is Head of Learning and Teaching Development in the Institute of Learning and Teaching in Higher Education (ILT) at the University of Northampton in the UK. She is currently leading a number of projects supporting the student experience, including improving the first-year experience and the development of a framework of graduate attributes embedding employability and Changemaker skills across our curricula.

Since starting work at the University of Northampton in 2012, Rachel has displayed a strong interest in Changemaking, primarily through her work to embed the skills and attributes associated with Changemaker into our curricula. In this way, her desire is to ensure that all students at Northampton receive a meaningful, on-programme entitlement to engage with Changemaking, thus supporting the institutional strategy: Transforming Lives + Inspiring Change.

#ashokaU #universityofnorthampton


Jerrid Kalakay 0:09

Welcome to the teaching change podcast where we explore social entrepreneurship, education, and innovation. I'm your host Jerrid Kalakay. On today's episode, we have the seventh and final installment of our special series Ashoka U on Teaching Change. Today we're speaking with Rachel Maxwell, head of learning and teaching development at North at the University of North Hampton.

So welcome to the show. Rachel, we're so excited to have you. I am very excited. So as we kick off, what do you go ahead, introduce yourself to our audience?

Rachel Maxwell 0:42

Okay, yeah, I'm so my name is Rachel Maxwell. I'm head of learning and teaching development at the University of North Hampton, in the UK. And we're about an hour north of London. And we are quite a relatively small institution, we have about 10,000 students in the UK and then others around the world as well. My role is very much about learning and teaching development. So looking ahead and looking at what we need to change about how we learn how we teach, how we assess our students, so lots of projects and lots of kind of, you know, developmental work to support staff to improve their learning and teaching practice.

Jerrid Kalakay 1:17

Fantastic, fantastic. And Rachel, how long you been in your role at Northampton?

Rachel Maxwell 1:23

And this particular role I've been in since about June 2015. So what, three and a half years now?

Jerrid Kalakay 1:29

Gotcha. And what brought you to this type of work? Have you have you always worked in higher education in kind of learning and teaching? or How did you come to come into this role?

Rachel Maxwell 1:42

Oh, no, I haven't always, um, I did my PhD, pretty much straight after finishing my law degree. And then had about 10 years out of 18. Altogether, I worked for church youth program, and then a worked actually for the church and charity isn't as administrator. And then I got back into teaching in about 2009. at college, I did my teaching qualification. And then from there, ended up going back into he, and firstly actually as a learning technologists, so supporting staff to use VLE and other learning technologies. But that's actually when I first got involved with change, making it not Hampton. And, and then sort of it took a few years to live, as opposed to me to really step into where I could really use sort of my heart and my passion for change making and in the work context.

Jerrid Kalakay 2:32

So let's talk a little bit about about change making in general. How do you see how do you see change making in the world? And like, what is your philosophy of change making? Oh, you didn't give me that one.

Rachel Maxwell 2:45

Um, I think the thing that that makes it work for me is, is the fact that actually anybody can be a change maker, you know. So if there's something that in your workplace you think needs to change, you don't have to wait for somebody who you see that position of authority to change something about it. But actually, you can do that yourself. So whether that is, you know, like I say, you work for somebody, or whether you start your own business, or whether it's at home or in a kind of volunteering capacity. But actually, everybody can do that, and does actually have a responsibility to do that to make a difference. And that's kind of how we've approached change, making it North Hampton. But I guess also, for me, how I've ended up in a position where I can have this role in change my career education at Northampton. I think for me, when it was sort of talking about change making generally, I think it starts with the individual, you know, we can all make a difference, no matter where we are, whether we are working for somebody else, we're not in any kind of position officially of power or influence. But we see something that needs to be different, or that could be different. But actually, we can, you know, do something about that we can begin to embed that change in our own practice. But we can also then take those ideas forward. And but it might be at home, it might be working for yourself, it might be through volunteering, but actually that we can all begin to do that for ourselves.

Jerrid Kalakay 4:07

Is that is that something that you've always kind of felt? Or is that something that has evolved over time?

Rachel Maxwell 4:13

And no, I would say that that's, I've probably wouldn't have articulated it like that. When I first You know, when we first started talking about change maker at Northampton, but when we were when I started with that role, it resonated. So it was obviously picking up on things like I'd already done previously. So I, you know, I spent a year doing a youth work program, you know, to sort of support people having a year out between school and college of college and university, or I've, you know, been worked in Africa a couple of times, and things like that, you know, so I have always done things that that Do you know that that was intended to make a difference?

Jerrid Kalakay 4:48

Absolutely. And and for listeners that may not be aware, University of North Hampton, has used the change making learning outcomes across the entire institution as I Is that correct?

Rachel Maxwell 5:01

Absolutely. Yeah. It's been huge. But we've done it. Yeah.

Jerrid Kalakay 5:05

Yeah, I can only imagine how how complex it must that process must be to get everyone on the same page, and embracing learning outcomes across the board. And then one, that,

Rachel Maxwell 5:19

well, we've had it

we've had some institutional drivers that have really helped to, to achieve that. So to help with buy in, but also sort of, you know, to bring everybody on board. And I think that's, that's that context. And that focus also, is really made a difference. But also we've had we, the way we went about the project was collaborative from the outset. So we didn't sort of approach it saying, This is what you need to do. And this is what it's going to look like. But actually, our approach was, was very much tailored to individual disciplines. But we also gave our staff real flexibility and real optionality choosing what the wording of those Changemaker outcomes look like. And that was absolutely critical. And then on top of that, and I think just just the whole framework, it you know, it, we designed the whole thing collaboratively from the outset. And so we've we've had that by him, because it's been co developed, and it's been co created.

Jerrid Kalakay 6:24

And that must have been How long was that process? Because to be truly collaborative in nature,

Rachel Maxwell 6:32

it takes a while. I mean, I'd imagine it must have taken taken much longer time that I've cried, how, right, it probably took four years from start to finish. From I went to one of the circuit exchanges in about 2013 had a conversation on the plane on the way back with our 10th leader at Northampton. And we were just, you know, pinging ideas of each other sort of thinking about what we could do. And at that time, I wasn't in a role where I could really, you know, have any influence on change maker in the curriculum, and, but, you know, still have these ideas of what it might look like. And so from start to finish, it probably took about four years to get to a place where we said, in this way, we can embed change maker learning outcomes into all our modules and programs. And so yeah, long process, lots of workshops, lots of post it notes, and

Jerrid Kalakay 7:23

yeah, I can imagine I can imagine. And so what I'm what inspired your desire to use learning outcomes in this way and as a kind of a basis for change making education? And then, as an outgrowth of that, what what do you think that really helped more Hampton? embrace it?

Rachel Maxwell 7:44

Yeah. Okay. So we had when we got involved, we got a change maker campus designation. And through a lot of time, I think people thought that that was just something that university was doing that was out there, it was kind of the public facing, you know, Northampton's attainment University. And then we started to think, Okay, what does that look like for our staff? Or what does that look like for our students, and we had two strands of work particularly relevant for this project. One was around change maker in the curriculum, and one must change maker and employability and the kind of more general change making stuff at Northampton. And each of those projects, and undertook research to understand what change making was what it looked like in the curriculum or what it looked like more generally. And it very quickly became clear that those two pieces of work actually needed to be joined together. So we had sort of got these research projects, we had a sense of what Changemaker attributes were so we've done a piece of research to say, Okay, what does it mean to be a change maker? What does that look like? What skills what attributes are needed for that? And then alongside that, we were also doing some work around employability. So employability is is kind of a key metric here in the UK, it's one of the things that we get measured against in terms of success of the institution, and how well, we're supporting our students, particularly around graduate level employability. So a graduate job. And through that work, we had 10 employability skills. And we, when we realized that they overlapped, or, you know, they mapped quite well with each other, you know, again, it became really clear that we needed to bring those two pieces of work together. And now what we've done in the UK is actually frame it in the language of employability, because that's more accessible in the UK context, it's more accessible to our staff and our students and our employers. And that was through the research that we kind of done. So we might call it you know, and employability skills, something like leadership or problem solving. But actually, the language that we use to define those skills is where change making this really, really evident. So our leadership definition is that students are responsible and accountable decision makers, who apply strategies to inspire others, and secure commitment to affect sustainable change. So always do that you can really win, see the Changemaker, you know, they've got to be responsible and accountable. But they've got to inspire others along the way. So they're not just doing it blindly, because they want it to be done. But you know, it's something that other people have bought into. And it's got to be, you know, that they've got, there's got to be a commitment for sustainable change as well. So we had sort of definitions, if you like, of all of these skills. But then what we had to do was realize that in our academic modules and programs, so we had this 10 skills, 10, it was too much, we can have a learning outcome for each one of those skills, every single module. Because if you put it into a learning outcome, you have to assess it. And that was just never going to work. Because that's, that's before you even you know, dealt with any of your subject knowledge and understanding, which, of course, is the primary reason why you're studying a particular program. So we really had to sort of rationalize that. And this is where the CO development and the CO creation stuff comes in. So we worked with our staff, even just to group those 10 skills, or to, you know, find it. We had to find a hedging or grouping, you know, just a word that would cover the three skills. And we had to do all that we had to make decisions around whether, you know, you had to have a learning outcome from each of those three areas, or whether you know, two was enough? or What did it mean, if you didn't have that? And how did that look across the whole program. So we had, you know, a sort of a lot to do to bring those things together. And so that's kind of, you know, how we did it, we had a graduate attribute statement as well. So we sort of decided what we wanted a graduate from North Hampton to look like. So we came up with a following. And it says that the University of North Hampton is committed to developing knowledgeable graduates who are socially responsible, digitally proficient, and highly employable, global citizens, the change makers of the future. So first and foremost, we've got the subject knowledge, again, the reason for doing your program, but you know, change making social responsibility is right in there right at the top. And then we had to work backwards from that. So we said, that's fine. But we don't want a graduate attribute statement that's aspirational, but not realized for all our students. So we need to do something now to make that real for everybody. And that's how we developed the change framework. And from there, how we develop the Cox toolkit, and which we can talk about as well.

Jerrid Kalakay 12:26

Yeah, I actually,

I actually have a copy here with me.

I think I think it was the last exchange. And and the cogs work is Changemaker outcomes for graduate success.

Rachel Maxwell 12:42

That's right. Yeah.

Jerrid Kalakay 12:43

Yeah. So I love the fact that your process was so collaborative. I also really sympathize with with it being a four year process, and how much work that must have been to go in to go into it. How many how many people? We're, we're involved in the creation during the collaborative process and with us for years, I mean,

was it every

Rachel Maxwell 13:09

No, no, no, definitely not everybody. And although the a lot of the invitations to participate in the workshops went out, generally, and then, you know, different people decided that they would be able to participate. But I must have run 12 or so workshops with maybe 10, around 10, maybe more people in them, some people came to sort of more than one, because they were sort of helping me with managing it and pulling it all together. And then some people just came for their subject specific or their academic school session. Because the thing that we needed to do when we were developing the toolkit was understand what that skill look like, in each and every subject area. So let me give you an example we all have to communicate. But communication as a dancer is different to communication as an economist, or to communication as an S. And so we have to, you know, we have to unpack that and explore that. And if we don't hear from our colleagues, and if we don't allow them to share with us what those things look like, and how how they're different, and how they're important, and in what ways they're important within each subject. We've lost them from the outset. So we need you to have something that would, that gave us a level of comparability across the different subject areas, and therefore a level of consistency for our students, and which met with national guidelines around sort of, you know, the level of study that that each of our students are working at. But it also then had to be tailored for those different subject areas. So there's lots of optionality, you can probably see that in the toolkit, now, there's lots of slashes lots of, you know, you could use this word or this word or that word, or you could come up with something different. And you can tailor it to the, you know, you can bring in subject specific sort of context, or you can, you know, add different bits together, or cut and paste not cut and paste in a bad way that borrow bits from for learning outcomes options to build a learning outcomes that is right and relevant and meaningful for your students on your discipline at the level of study that they're working at.

Jerrid Kalakay 15:11

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I just, I'm in awe, of how detailed and how comprehensive, the process that you all went under, underwent.

Rachel Maxwell 15:22

Yeah, it was messy.

Jerrid Kalakay 15:24

I mean, I can only imagine as, as the person who's, who's kind of steering the ship, and how did you how did you keep up your energy level and the institutions energy level around this work?

Rachel Maxwell 15:40

I think because I've been in sort of that role, where I didn't have the ability to do anything about it. And all of a sudden, I was I was there, and I was able to do something. And I think I'd sort of waited for such a long time for that opportunity to come. And then we were doing another piece of work around learning and teaching pedagogy at Northampton, to me active to make it blended, and to really focus on learning rather than teaching. And so all of our programs and all of our modules, were undergoing a huge piece of redesigned work anyway. And then sort of somebody higher up for me said, we need to kind of join all these dots together, we don't want our staff to redesign the modules for active blended learning. And then a year later, we say, oh, now you need to embed change making. So we actually had to throw the whole lot into the mix. And that's how we got a lot of the buy in as well, because everybody had to do it. And we decided that we would do it consistently and you know, do it in a year, we would rename our categories of learning outcomes, we would be clear as to what that meant, we would sort of address and level the number of learning outcomes a level nest, make sure they're accessible as well. So that's how we got that buy in. Because, you know, only in that way, could we deliver it consistently.

Jerrid Kalakay 16:52

You think that because you're already going through as an institution that that process of redoing your pedagogy, and active learning strategies, and so was that it was easier to embed change making? comes in? Yeah, I wish I would say so.

Rachel Maxwell 17:07

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think,

you know, there's always going to be resistance to something like this, you know, there's a lot of academics who rightly a very, very passionate about this subject, and who don't necessarily understand how this might relate. And so I think that gave us sort of, perhaps more of a stick than a carrot, although for many people, this was a carrot, you know, they've been wanting to do it themselves and been trying to do it and been, you know, achieving sort of a measure of success was doing it. But I think what this did was bring a level, that level of consistency. And it really realized that for all of us students, and because it's been a learning outcome, it's assessed. So you know, it's not just, oh, this is a nice thing we'd like to do. Now, actually, we're assessing you against this. And we mark now to learning outcomes. So if you've got a learning outcome that is looking at your ability to communicate or to problem solve, you know, you know, in a Changemaker kind of context, then let's assess you against that. And then let's marketplace that, and have you been able to do that. So yeah, we've had a lot of strategic direction, if you like, and that has, has helped. So we've kind of got had that top down. But we've also had very much about bottom up approach as well. And the two have worked really well together. And because we haven't prescribed exactly what your learning outcomes must look like, so it's not cut and paste, it's not just copy this and off you go. You do you know, we do expect our staff to think about what they want, what aspect of communication do they want to develop? You know, what does it mean to be a leader, there's different aspects to leadership, which better you focusing on in this module? Which level is it? Ok, so now you've got that, so then we can, you know, assess against that. So you've got to tailor it. But we've got a drive from the top that says that this is absolutely something that we want to do. We've captured it. And then in our statement of graduate attributes, we've got a framework that delivers it, and now we're making sure that it happens. And you know, we're not just teaching against it, but we're assessing against it.

Jerrid Kalakay 19:06


And so Horace, the faculty at your institution, as they're going through this process, and and now, and now using these in their, in their classrooms over what can what kind of support is available to to them in creating their courses where, you know, teaching their courses, etc, around the change regular learning outcomes?

Rachel Maxwell 19:32

Yeah. Okay. So we had our main workshop, we had an academic and self development workshop called How did the goalposts move. So I'm going to explain that, because that doesn't make a lot of sense. But the level of study is really important in the UK. So in your first year, you know, there's sort of a national framework that we have to comply with, as you move up here, you would expect the demands to be placed on us as students to be higher, to be more complex to be more in depth to evolve different skills, or to follow the same skills, but, you know, achieve better, you know, to demonstrate more mastery or to, you know, more skill in those skills. So, we kind of said, Okay, so So how did the goalpost move? You know, I finished first year, I'm going into second year, you're going to expect more of me, but but what more do you expect? How do I deliver that? Yeah, I can do some problem solving. I've made a few presentations, I can communicate. Now I'm going up to level. Yeah, what more is expected of me. So this, how did the goalposts move workshop was really about unpacking that. And looking at the different levels that you can see in the coax toolkit that says, okay, communication at level four looks like this, as you move up to level five, and the level of support that you might get from your tutor might drop, you might have to work in a more complex situation, the case study you're looking at might be more complex, you might have to work across different time zones, you might have to come up with a solution yourself, instead of using a solution from somebody else that's already been provided. So we ran a lot of those workshops with staff, when they were looking specifically at their learning outcomes. We also attended lots of faculty and subject development days. So to talk about what this might look like, and to talk about the kind of the ethos behind it, how we got to where we got to, and to be able to share that collaborative design process, part and parcel of what we're doing at Northampton. So yeah, we've absolutely changed what learning and teaching like so you won't see students sitting in lecture theatres, you know, row on row, and taking notes sleeping at the back, you know, shocking. You know, the idea is that your students are in class actively learning, and then being assessed against those things. And, and then in the what we've also done, because we bought those two strands of work together, what we do in the classroom also maps or mirrors what they do in an extracurricular in a co curricular context. So what matters is not just again, what the students know, but they've got to be able to articulate it. So when you go to an interview, you've got to be able to say, actually, this is the skills I have, this is where I develop them, this is how I develop them. And this is what you're going to get if you employ me. So ultimately, we want our students to stand out in the marketplace. You know, there's lots of graduates out there. But what does it look like? Well, this is what our statement of graduate attributes looks like. And this is how we've realized it. So we are deliberately consistently supporting our students to develop those skills, those attributes, those capabilities, and we're helping them in the extra curricular context, to articulate that, to practice that to be able to express it, so that they really are change makers of the future. So when they go into workplaces, they can say, you know, this isn't working, and we need to do this differently, whether they, you know, officially got that position or not, they can do something about it.

Jerrid Kalakay 22:57

So I'm ready to sign up. Do you accept non traditional stick?

Rachel Maxwell 23:01

Yeah, very much. So we have what we're what you call it, widen participation University. So okay, sort of a big move again, across the UK about sort of every year, lots of people having the opportunity to go to university. So we have a lot of non traditional students, we have a lot of first time students, you know, festive family, and come to the University. So yeah, and I think that's also gives us the potential to say, you know, come come to us, because we're going to offer you these different skills and these different experiences and these different opportunities.

Jerrid Kalakay 23:33

Yeah, absolutely. What has been some pieces of learning, in your own in your own profession, worked with such a large team and such a big process to really recall and reinvent, in many ways, the entire model of the university, and the winning University approaches, education, what, what has been some key takeaways for you in that process.

Rachel Maxwell 24:01

And, to know, I've learned so much through this process, I've learned that it's okay for it to be messy. And I'm not going to control it or be able to own it. And I think that's really, really important. You know, it's okay for the mess. Sometimes you do have to just throw everything in and kind of see what comes out. And I learned the value of collaborating with my academic and professional colleagues, you know, I didn't have the right answer, there isn't a right answer, that's just going to appear. There are various ways in which we could approach this. But, you know, we all contributed to that. And we could see it shaping and evolving and coming together. And but this is the approach that was right for us. So it was right, strategically, it was right operationally, and it was right, pedagogically, so context really matters. You know, you need to start by understanding and exploring your own context. Think about your strategic mission, you know, what matters to you? What values are important to you? What skills do your students need? What does your local work, you know, workforce need from your graduates? And I learned the importance of working backwards, as well as the saying, you know, what, what do our graduates look like? What's going to make them different. And then having sort of got that aspirational statement, we, you know, thinking about how you're going to realize that how you're going to make that happen, what are the constraints that you've got to work with, and then that helps you to sort of fit other pieces of the jigsaw together, maybe some of those pieces don't seem to fit at the beginning. And then you know, you can have a conversation with somebody else. And they say, well, we're just doing this, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, we can do that. And that, and this all fits together. And, you know, you've made this massive kind of step forward to chance conversations, or through just different people being able to contribute. But I think that that thing about context is so, so crucial. And, and that bit about involving your colleagues, you know, helping them to design it, helping them to develop her or sorry, then helping us really to do that, you know, their input is just as valuable. And it in many ways, my role was just to facilitate it to listen and to pull those strands together, and see what came out of it. And so although we've licensed Cox, it's got a Creative Commons license on it. And for example, I would say, don't just take it and use it without thinking more broadly, about your context, and and what you're trying to achieve. So I think, you know, I've spoken with some colleagues who think that, you know, we've done all the work, they can just take this and apply it, and I would absolutely say, you know, no, that's not the way to go ahead with it, you'll find that you don't have the buy in, you don't have the ownership. And that, and the strategic kind of, you know, leadership of that has been absolutely crucial to the level of buy in, and support that we've had from our colleagues. So yeah, I learned a lot.

Jerrid Kalakay 26:46

Yeah, no, I mean, you're, you're articulated. So well, I'm, I'm astounded at the amount of work. What do you hope that the publication from Ashoka, you will do? Kind of along the lines of what we're saying you're hoping people will just take the Congress document and and use it as a one size fits all. But that context matters immensely? What do you hope they're going to do with the Ashoka learning outcomes publication? What do you hope to see.

Rachel Maxwell 27:16

And I think it gives

a real kind of insight into how different people have approached it. So it doesn't just say, here's how you do this, and off you go. And because I think that's, that's wrong, because of all these, these different factors that every you know, institution will have, or different imperatives that they're trying to, to address. So I think it says, you know, there's not just one way to do this. But there are actually lots of different ways. And sometimes it might come from within a business school or, you know, a sense of social enterprise. And that might be your, your kind of starter. And from there, it might radiate outwards. from us, it came, you know, much more institution, it was driven by a strategic mission. And we were able to lead facilitate that project, in a way that was very inclusive, it was very collaborative. I just think it's really important that people grapple with this stuff and themselves, you know, it's not easy to do. And you can't just, it's not an off the shelf thing, you know, our cocks talk, it's not an off the shelf thing. Even within our institution, you're expected to do stuff with it. If you're going beyond, you know, Northampton, to another institution, even more. So you know, even more, you've got to think about how does that fit with your strategy? Have you got the buy in for that, you know, have you got the move the support from your colleagues who are actually going to be delivering this stuff? And so I think it will really encourage people to think about what they do and why they're doing it. And to find a way that that's right for them. And individually and institutionally.

Jerrid Kalakay 28:47

Yeah, I, I've gotten a chance to look at some of the draft of the publication. And I couldn't agree more, I think, I think it is more of a great conversation starter. To begin the process of really evaluating and in some cases reevaluating their change making learning outcomes and their entire process, I think it's a great conversation starter, or maybe continuous, more than, than an end all be all blueprint. I can't agree with you more on that. Because context is something that we, we sometimes try to overlook, but it is it is an absolute essential piece, to the puzzle that we can use this, no two institutions are the same. No two departments are the same. regardless how many similarities are there's there's different to the you may not even be aware?

Rachel Maxwell 29:40

Yeah. And I think we found that, you know, I worked with Cook's toolkit at international conferences with colleagues from you know, Eastern Europe of staff bought it to a show PU. And yeah, there were different things, you know, people come up even with different language or different words or, you know, different meanings for things. So even our groupings in the framework where we kind of grouped the skills into either collaboration, change or self direction, I think self direction started out as self management. And, you know, it went to lots and lots of iterations until we found something that, that sat right with those people who are participating. So, you know, you're absolutely right. For us it, you know, it's a toolkit, it's not a blueprint, you know, you mentioned the word blueprint. And we use that a lot when we're talking about cogs, you know, it's not a blueprint, it's not a, this is what you must do. It's a toolkit, it's, you know, there's lots of ideas in here. Now, you've got to work it out, you've got to think about it for yourself and, and do what's right, for all those different factors.

Jerrid Kalakay 30:38

Well, I think that I think that might be the that approach, and that philosophy, I think, has led to the success of the project, and it is in its first place. Because in, in having that philosophy and having that approach, you're inviting people into the process, to use what you have as as a as a basis or as a starting point. But yeah, that they are part of the process, that they're involved in the process, and that ultimately make it make it their own. I think that a lot of times, when we try to get things done, whether it be in higher education, or in nonprofit or court change making out in the world, we tend to forget how important that is. inviting people to the table, allowing them to make it their own. Because, you know, even in your process, in the four years ago, you were working on this, I gotta believe that there was, it became your baby to a certain degree, right? And yeah, and, you know, and, and, you know, all of the proverbial blood, sweat and tears that goes into an indoor process like this, you know, it is very, very difficult to then say, here, making your own changes, name change, you know, whatever you need to do. Yeah, so hats off, hats off to you and your colleagues, because that's not an easy process to undertake.

Rachel Maxwell 32:16

No, but it was fun. I know you say blood, sweat and tears, but and then there was there was sort of a lot of, you know, frustrations or, like you say, just a lot of hard work. But it just having gone through it, you know, it's, it's, it's valuable, we want other people to learn from the process that we went through, we want them to, you know, not make the same mistakes that we made, are not just, you know, don't just think that you can take it and use it because you will, I genuinely believe that, you know, you will fail because you won't have that buy in. So, you know, that guidance that that context, in terms of how we explain how to use it, is really critical. And, but at the same time, you know, we don't, you don't need to reinvent the wheel from scratch. So if it's the Cox tool kit, or it's another example of an approach to learning outcomes, for change making purposes, from the show KU publication, you know, that's, that's why they've done it, you know, it doesn't matter, we're not going to hold on to it. But we do, we would say, you know, contextualize it, think about that, and adapt it, make it your own leadership and, and change maker leadership. And I was talking to our change leader about that. And we were talking, and like I said about that, that thing of creating something, it's your baby, you've invested in it, and then you kind of let it go. And sort of what happens from that. And I don't always see what happens from that, you know, I very much view my role as a facilitator and to let these things happen. But then, you know, you don't always see the outcome of that. But then I was thinking about the type of leader leadership that we had for this project, and just how it was very collaborative, and co developmental. And we've also been talking a lot about academic leadership at Northampton and sort of about bounded and undoubtedly, individuals. So there's a piece of work by a lady in the UK called CU, which church, and she talks about bounded professionals and unbounded professionals and cross boundary professionals, I think if you really want to, you know, be a change maker, be a change leader, then you need to learn to work across boundaries, and to not hold on to the things that that you're designing, you know, we're we're all here together, we're all trying to make a difference or trying to do something that matters. That is, you know, for the right reasons. So let's learn to work across some of those boundaries. And let's break some of those boundaries down and just do something different because it's the right thing to do. Not because there's a policy or process or or requirement, you know, and I think that that that unbounded leadership thing is, is actually quite important in being able to bring different people together from you know, it, we've had employer input, we've had student input, we've had stock input, we've had professional colleagues input, and and all of that has helped to make the Cox toolkit and the change framework what they are, it's not just one or the other, you know, yeah. That facilitation, and the way in which you go about it also matters.

Jerrid Kalakay 35:05

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's what changed making it. Right. You've got to, you've got to have unbounded leadership. And you've got to work across disciplines and across industries and across job titles and all the rest, and really make make change.

Rachel Maxwell 35:24

Absolutely. But the thing I picked up again, from a shaker is, you know, 21st century problems are messy. And so the solutions are going to be messy, you're not going to solve homelessness by just government policy. It needs government policy, but it needs housing, it needs health, it needs you know, so many factors to come into solve something like homelessness. And it's the same with these kind of things, you know that they are messy, and it's okay that it's messy. But let's just bring everybody in and let's, you know, throw it all in there and, and find a way through that we can do something useful with it.

Jerrid Kalakay 35:56

Today we're speaking with Rachel Maxwell, head of learning and teaching development at North at the University of North Hampton. Till next time, be nice and change some stuff

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